Staying Up to Code and Beyond: Building Accessibly with Joshua Klyber

Accessibility in the built environment is about more than meeting minimum standards; it is about creating spaces where people can participate with independence, dignity, and belonging. In this episode of Accessibility in Practice, Adam Fishbein speaks with Joshua Klyber about disability, universal design, building codes, accessible architecture, and the importance of including disabled people and other community members early in the design process. Joshua shares how his background in code development, environmental justice, and lived experience with neurodivergence shaped his work in accessibility compliance, while also discussing curb ramps, fire alarms, trauma-informed design, the Harkin Institute, accessible hotels, retrofit costs, advocacy, and global progress in accessibility standards. The conversation offers a practical and thoughtful look at how better design decisions can move accessibility beyond compliance and toward a more inclusive baseline for everyone.

Transcript

Adam: 00:01

Welcome to Accessibility in Practice with Accessible Community, where we talk with the people shaping a more accessible world. I'm Adam Fitchbein, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Joshua Klyber, a leading voice in disability and physical accessibility. Thanks so much for being here, Joshua.

Joshua: 00:31

Yeah, of course. Happy to be here.

Adam: 00:34

Let's dive in. First off, can you tell us a bit about your background and what drew you into the field of disability and accessibility? Was there a particular moment that shaped your journey?

Joshua: 00:39

Sure. I would say there are two main reasons why I got into this. One was that I was really interested in code development. I started my code career doing environmental justice work, getting various alternative building materials into the national building code. I had a thirst for building code and seeing things change on a larger scale, and eventually I ran out of things I wanted to do with environmental justice and alternative building materials. At the same time, my company was looking for somebody to start performing accessibility compliance work for the architecture industry. The second thing is that I have a couple of kids. One we were fairly sure had ADHD, but with the other one, we struggled for a couple of years before eventually coming to the realization that she was on the autism spectrum. Through that, we realized a whole bunch of other people in our family were also on the spectrum, including myself. Being late-stage diagnosed with autism and ADHD had a profound effect on my life. It put a lot of things into place. It was like, oh, this explains a lot of my history. It explains my interest in this. It explains a lot of empathy for people with disabilities. Those two things together started shifting me toward doing a lot more accessibility within the built environment and assisting architects, building owners, and developers in designing for people with disabilities and making it easier for them.

Adam: 02:46

Wow, that's great. Sounds like a really cool journey. So when you look at the big picture, what do you think are the most urgent or misunderstood issues in accessibility right now in your specific field or part of accessibility?

Joshua: 03:05

A lot of my job is making sure that new construction within the built environment—new buildings, banks, stores, schools, houses, multifamily housing—complies with the ADA and all the technical standards within it. My biggest complaint, and benefit, with mixed feelings about it, is that everyone builds to the minimum standards in the ADA. Essentially, it's a baseline. It's the bare minimum people really should be doing. One of my issues with that is the ADA standards, at this point, are 15 years old and have not been updated, and they're not going to be updated anytime soon, thanks to the current administration.

Adam: 03:57

Wait, the standards, you mean?

Joshua: 04:00

Yes.

Adam: 04:01

Yeah.

Joshua: 04:02

Okay. There's been a lot of realization, growth, development, and new things coming to light due to the sociocultural movement that has happened in the past decade. ADA is so much more than mobility concerns at this point. It's also aging in place, neurodivergent design, and recent advancements in Deaf design. There are so many more things out there that we are aware of now, and the ADA is just way behind. That's one big thing. People are designing to this old standard and are not necessarily designing for the populations today as we understand them.

Adam: 04:51

Yeah. Are there any myths or misconceptions about disability and universal design that you find yourself always correcting?

Joshua: 05:06

Within universal design, there's a lot of discussion about definitions. What does universal design mean, and who is it for? One major assumption is that you're designing for as many people as possible so they can access a space or program without necessarily having to ask permission or ask for a key to get into something, like a bathroom, and to be able to do that independently, with a sense of dignity and belonging. Sometimes universal design is thought of as designing for everyone, but not necessarily for specific individuals, or even at the cost of designing for individuals. Trying to apply universal design to multifamily housing, for example, means we try to make it as flexible as possible so someone with specific needs can come into a particular unit and customize it for what they need: changing the height of the counters for the size of the wheelchair they have, or putting in little memory indicators for where a light switch is going to be. Universal design is not about designing for the average to try to accommodate everyone's needs, because that's impossible. Universal design is a good starting place to provide a flexible platform from which individuals can adapt for their specific needs.

Adam: 06:50

Wait, that's really interesting and profound. That's a great way to frame it. A lot has changed over the past decade in technology and public awareness. Where do you see real progress, and where do you think serious work still needs to be done?

Joshua: 07:13

There's a lot of amazing work being done in terms of disability rights and within the architectural world. There's new terminology coming up, new focuses of study, and that's evidenced by all of these subdomains or subdisciplines of universal design. I already mentioned Deaf design, but there's also specifically designing for the blind, something called trauma-informed design, and trying to design for people who are dealing with either simple or complex trauma. That shows up in different populations, whether you're talking about transitional homelessness, domestic violence abuse victims, or military veterans dealing with complex trauma. To focus on all those little subregions is pretty amazing, and that's really just started to happen in the past five to ten years.

Adam: 08:16

As a follow-up to that, would an example of trauma-informed design be when you're designing a fire alarm, and instead of making it the loudest possible alarm, you use words or a voice announcement? Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? I know, for me, I am so sensitive to that kind of stuff. I've always wondered why we have to have those really loud fire alarm noises. That's just one of my pet peeves.

Joshua: 09:16

Yeah, understood. This once again gets back to the individuals. Fire alarms are designed in such a way that they are annoying, because they have to intrude upon all of your personal thoughts and really be noticed. For some people, that can also be so overwhelming and triggering that it freezes them in place. What you're referring to with voice announcements is called voice annunciation. Those are required in larger populated buildings, concert halls, educational facilities like colleges, and things along those lines, because it shows that we don't all necessarily respond to the same kind of societal cues in the same way. Voice annunciation can say things like “shelter in place” or “please exit the building,” or just let you know what is happening. That is much more helpful, especially for people on the spectrum who are sensitive to loud, incongruous noises without clear direction.

Adam: 10:32

Yeah, it's that freezing-in-place kind of thing. That was a little bit of a side tangent, but let's talk about innovation for a minute. What kinds of innovations are you genuinely excited about in terms of improving accessibility? And are there underrated, low-tech solutions you think deserve more attention?

Joshua: 11:03

When we start talking about innovations, a lot of people's minds immediately go toward technology, and they skip over the smaller ideas that are really helpful and beneficial for a lot of people. One of my favorite examples is the curb ramp. It's the old stereotypical example. It was originally developed a long time ago for veterans coming back from, I think, World War I or World War II. Then it was picked up again in the '70s, I want to say, by the Rolling Quads in Berkeley for access by paraplegics. Here we have veterans and paraplegics basically wanting access to the public right-of-way and being able to cross the street, and yet it's beneficial for lots and lots of people: mothers with strollers, delivery people, and elderly people who have toe drop and have trouble lifting their feet. That is not really a technological solution. I suppose it is, but it's just a minor change in how we design something that's already there. It's not the development of some high-tech gadget that's going to solve all of our problems. There are simple solutions like that, which I tend to favor because there's a lot less that can go wrong with them. On the other hand, I think the smartphone is probably one of the best, most versatile inventions for people with disabilities ever. It allows us to know what we're getting into when we want to travel somewhere. It allows us to look at train schedules online, call people to get more information, use directional apps, and program it to do pretty much anything we need to augment our ability to get around, know information, or navigate through life. So there are both sides. There is higher-technology, really cool stuff, but there are also really simple building design elements, too.

Adam: 13:26

Yeah, good points. Do you have a favorite example, like a company or institution that's getting it right, or at least making real progress?

Joshua: 13:37

Oh, there's a lot of them.

Joshua: 13:41

There's been so much work being done in airports, schools, and office buildings, and they all tend to focus on slightly different aspects of disability that are more pertinent to who their clientele is. Offices deal with a lot of neurodivergent design. Schools also deal with a lot of neurodivergent design, but with younger children and how to accommodate the wide variety of learning styles that are there. I'm trying to think of a singular example. One of my favorites, and I want to give a shout-out to the Harkin Institute. Senator Harkin was largely the person who pushed through the ADA back in 1990. If senators had libraries, like presidential libraries, his would be the Harkin Institute, which is at Drake University in Iowa. He specifically wanted his building to go above and beyond the baseline requirements of the ADA, so they designed it with universal design principles in mind. From wayfinding to providing a ramp that goes all the way between the first and second floors around the atrium, it's really pretty. There are clearly contrasting doors, elevators, and signage so everything is easily found, and localized control of environmental conditions so people can adjust lighting levels, heat, wind, and noise so the environment fits them and they can be most efficient while working. It's a great and beautiful building.

Note: Cleaned through 19:58.

Adam: 15:31

That's awesome. I've been in disability for a while, and I didn't realize the Harkin Institute had that. Wow, that's cool. Thinking about universal and community-specific design, what do you wish every organization would do to build a more inclusive environment?

Joshua: 15:54

Two things. There's a lot of terminology being tossed around. There's accessible design, inclusive design. I like to use community-specific design, equitable design, human-centered design, lots of different terms. For me, one of the biggest things is what I call inclusive design, which is making sure that the voices of the users and other stakeholders who will be using the building are heard and included within that design process, especially marginalized populations that you don't hear from as often. Using the Harkin Institute as an example, before they even started the design of their building, they created a committee of stakeholders that made sure people with disabilities were represented and had input into what was needed out of this building before they started to design it. What are the goals? What are the principles? What are the complaints? What would be amazing? Let's get all of those ideas together before we actually start the design. This includes people with disabilities, but also some lesser-thought-about populations, such as maintenance staff, housekeeping, or non-English speakers who are members of the community and may need to figure out how to get where they're going without being able to read all the signs. There are tons of different populations there, and each is a unique combination within that community, so it's important to respond to the needs of the community of users of the building. That's what I lump into the term inclusive design. People are being included in that design process. And I don't remember my second point.

Adam: 18:02

No, it's okay. How do you balance function and design or aesthetics when building an accessible space?

Joshua: 18:19

One of the classic examples of this is grab bars. I'm working on a luxury, high-end hotel right now, and they are really questioning how many rooms they need to make accessible. What they're really asking, but not wanting to come out and say, is how many rooms they have to install ugly grab bars in, because they don't want that to meet the aesthetic of this luxury hotel. My response is that you don't always have to make things look institutional. There are well-designed grab bars available. Yes, they cost a little bit more money because you have to pay the designer, and it's not necessarily just standard chrome or polished nickel. But it's totally possible, with what's out there, to create aesthetically pleasing, fully accessible elements and spaces that are welcoming. It just takes a little bit more creativity, and it has to be thought of from the beginning rather than toward the end of the project. Don't push it off to the end and say, okay, great, now how do we make this accessible? Then you're going to have to use one of these mediocre products because that's the only option available at that point. If you design earlier on, it's a lot easier to incorporate and a lot cheaper to incorporate. It just takes more design and more thinking.

Adam: 19:58

Speaking of budget and cost, what advice would you give to organizations that are trying to design an accessible environment, office environment, or whatever environment, within budget or capacity constraints?

Joshua: 20:19

Once again, start as early as you can. Try to involve the necessary people and get the high-level concepts brought in very early in the design process. There's a great study by an organization called the Rick Hansen Foundation out of Canada. They went through a typical standard construction office building and a fully accessible or universally designed office building, according to them, and the total project cost increased by about one and a half to two percent, which is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. But that's only if it's taken into account early on. If the accessibility and other universal design conditions are built in from the very beginning, it's much less expensive. It's so much more expensive to try to retrofit.

Adam: 21:17

How much more expensive, generally?

Adam: 21:21

Oof. Like with a specific example. You don't have to generalize.

Joshua: 21:30

I definitely don't have numbers on that. But let me state that it also doesn't really come down to just money. Having to retrofit, especially toward the end of a new construction project, is not only the cost of the labor and the material itself. There's also delay in schedule, which costs money. There's all the organizing that has to happen between the architect, the building owner, and the various trades. It creates a lot of headache. Just the amount of meetings and emails that have to go back and forth, revised designs, checking those, and sometimes getting a revised permit and sending that back into the city. It can sometimes take months to do these changes. If it was done in the first place, it would be so much easier and so much more streamlined.

Adam: 22:26

Yeah, that seems like the bottom line. What advice do you have for people with disabilities or their advocates as they navigate a world that often doesn't understand what they're going through?

Joshua: 22:42

That's hard, because everyone has different interests and different levels of agency within the world. I think it's important that everyone who has a disability of any kind, or even some conditions that are not necessarily considered a disability but are marginalized, become an advocate to the best of their ability and strength. That said, I know it's really difficult. There are times when I'm like, okay, I can't talk to anybody else today. My social battery is entirely worn out. So I do what I can within that day and then reset, and tomorrow is another day. I think everyone has to be as much of an advocate as they can. In terms of what being an advocate means, should people get angry? Should they work within the systems that are already in place? That's a whole other question that I don't really want to get into right now because it's going to be a whole discussion in and of itself.

Adam: 24:03

Yeah, we could do a whole podcast on that.

Joshua: 24:07

Yeah. Another thing I would say is find your people. Find people you connect with and stand with them. Use them as resources. Be resources for other people. Support others and have them support you, because together we are stronger.

Adam: 24:27

Yeah, that's so true. What keeps you motivated in this work, especially when change feels slow? Is there a story or principle you keep coming back to?

Joshua: 24:42

One of the things I do on the side is volunteer for a music festival. This came up for me recently because I just finished it a couple of weeks ago. We build a stage and a tea house at a music festival, and a couple of years ago, we decided we needed to make it much more accessible. We ended up building some ramps, one up to the little stage, even though it was only about an eight-inch rise, and one to the little tea house. We also dedicated a space close to the stage with a good viewing distance for people with mobility devices and ran a power line out there so that while they were watching a show, they could recharge their wheelchair or whatever power needs they had. I think it was within the first day that we had somebody who heard we had a charging station, and they were mid-ramp when their battery died. They didn't quite make it there, so we ended up pushing the wheelchair there, sitting down with them as the wheelchair charged, and having this conversation. They were so incredibly thankful that this one place existed within the entire festival. It gave us power, excitement, and gratitude. It made us feel good to hear that we helped somebody.

Adam: 26:27

Wow, yeah, that's great. That's humanity coming together kind of thing. Last one: what is coming up on the horizon? Are there any new laws, technologies, or cultural moments in accessibility that you're especially watching?

Joshua: 26:54

In my professional life, looking at the codes and standards by which we build things, most of my excitement is actually outside of the U.S. Like I mentioned earlier, the ADA is 15 years old and the standards haven't really been updated in over a decade, decade and a half. What's happening in a lot of the rest of the world is that they are currently developing accessibility standards inspired by the ADA for the first time. We're seeing all of these different standards around the world that, because they're just being developed currently, are so much more progressive. They're taking into account a lot of these more recent developments that have been happening. Canada, Australia, and even the city of Riyadh in Saudi Arabia have very progressive universal design that takes mobility concerns into account incredibly progressively, much more so than anything in the U.S. In some ways, I see it as the U.S. was the first real disability rights law that passed in 1990, and now a lot of other places are taking up that mantle and extending it way far beyond that. That gives me a lot of hope. What I really want the U.S. to do is see what the rest of the world is doing and be able to follow them now.

Adam: 28:41

Yeah, I know I've seen that too. Joshua, thank you so much for sharing your insight and stories with us today. It's been a pleasure.

Joshua: 28:53

Yeah, of course.

Adam: 28:55

Thanks for listening to this installment of Accessibility in Practice. For show notes, head over to accessiblecommunity.org/podcast. And if you enjoyed the episode, make sure to subscribe and share. Until next time, keep working toward a more accessible world.