Blindness with Beth

We sit down with Beth to explore what daily life looks like for a blind woman who has navigated blindness since birth. Beth shares thoughtful and honest insights into everything from education, work, travel, relationships, and assistive technology, to the social misconceptions that still surround blindness today. This conversation highlights the importance of self-advocacy, adaptability, and problem‑solving, while emphasizing that blindness is not a singular experience but a broad spectrum. Through humor, reflection, and lived experience, Beth offers a powerful perspective on embracing blindness, setting boundaries, and finding confidence and joy in everyday life. 

Transcript

Taylor 0:36

Welcome to the Accessible Community Podcast, where we will be exploring disability, aging, and accessibility through lived experiences. Join us to deepen your understanding in these areas, and for show notes, you can find them at accessiblecommunity.org slash podcast. Be accessible and be inclusive. Hey everyone, and welcome to a new episode of Day in the Life, a new series brought to you by people at Accessible Community and hosted by me, Taylor Dorward. In this series, where our goals are to educate the community, raise awareness, as well as providing people like my guest today best, a platform to share their story and lived experiences with a variety of different disabilities. And maybe by doing so, they can assist others navigating life with a similar disability. So, as I said, my name is Taylor Dorwood, and I'm a white male with short brown hair. Although it's getting a little bit longer, need a haircut, a short brown beard, blue eyes, and today I'm wearing a white t-shirt with a short-sleeved brown denim shirt over top and a silver chain. And now I will pass it over to my guest, Beth, and let her introduce herself.

Beth 1:58

Hello, Taylor. Hello, everyone. Thanks for having me here. My like I said, my name is Beth. I am a white woman. I you I have short brown hair, which you probably can't see too well because my headphones are covering it up. Wearing a sweater and black pants, which you can't see because we're on video. But um, I'm really happy to be here.

Taylor 2:19

Um but yeah, so you've told us a little bit about you, but can you give us some more detail? Like obviously, we're not going to talk too much about work. We're gonna focus more on personal life and social life. Um, so tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your family, and maybe even some about your your blindness.

Beth 2:38

I am blind. I've pretty much been blind since birth. It they call it um retinopathy of prematurity. Um basically is too much oxygen incubator. So I was two and a half months premature. So I'm originally from Maine growing up. Um now I'm living here in Baltimore, Maryland.

Taylor 2:57

Um, so when it comes to talking about your blindness and specifically with yourself, do you prefer person first or identity first or even a blend?

Beth 3:09

Um, I usually just say I'm that I'm blind. I so when when that all started, you know, to what, you know, 15, 20 years ago, um, I said person first, but you know, as I've gotten older, I mean I'm 57, so you know it it's changed. You know, when I was very young, it was blind person, and then it was person who was blind or person with a disability and visually impaired and all these things. And I always found it just to say more comfortable that I'm a blind person, but I, you know, everyone has to do what they feel it works for them. But for me personally, I usually just say that I'm a blind person.

Taylor 3:54

Very interesting. And that's one of my favorite topics to talk about because people have a variety of different perspectives. And like you said, for a while, I I too was person first and I've slowly shifted to identity first. And I think part of that was for a while I thought my blindness would eventually go away. So I didn't feel like it was part of me necessarily, but now it's been a long time where it's not going away. So it I've accepted them more. So I always find that to be very fascinating to talk about with others.

Beth 4:27

Yeah, I think, you know, obviously I I can only speak for myself, but I think part of it was um accepting blindness, like you said, and knowing that it's respectable and it's every, you know, it's okay. And you, you know, I can do what I need to do and what I want to do in life. You know, unlike many people I have never seen before. So I don't, you know, you can't really miss something you haven't had. So growing up, I I had more issues with with what people thought I could or couldn't do. And, you know, as I've grown up, I've learned what my limitations are. And it's important to know that, you know, you and I are both blind, but both of us have different aptitudes and different limitations. And, you know, you might be good at one thing and I might be good at something else. And just because we're both blind doesn't mean that, you know, we have the same aptitudes. I think uh sometimes we have to be careful not to generalize about, well, well, Beth can do this, so Taylor can do this too. I mean, maybe you can. It just depends on what it is. Like if you're when I was growing up, for instance, math was not something I was encouraged to do. I ended up learning about it later and doing it for my career and getting help from other blind people because um the people in my life tried to help me with it, but they just did not know how to teach math non-visually. Um, you know, I went through the public school system and everyone made their best effort, but but um I'm a braille user and I did have braille books, but it would have also helped to have props and things, you know, so you could touch a cylinder or touch a square and know that that's what it was. And it wasn't that people didn't try, they just didn't know what to do. So, you know, that just brings me to sometimes it's just a lack of knowledge or a lack of training, you know, it's not the blindness per se. And sometimes, you know, some of us get training, you know, early on, and some of us, you know, are still learning as we go forward. I'm I learn things every day, or at least I try to.

Taylor 6:27

Yeah, I totally agree with you. That's a very interesting point because that's part of the reason we're doing this. And I'm rather excited to be covering blindness now because with many disabilities, there are a lot of misconceptions. But with blindness, a lot of people still think that with blindness it's it's very black and white, either you see nothing and you see everything. So, yeah, that's really interesting that that you're sharing that because I think that's really important for people to know. I think I saw a statistic around 80 to 90 percent of people with blindness still have some functional vision, which I found very fascinating. I didn't, I knew obviously, because I myself am blind with with functional vision, but I always thought I was in the minority. And it's just very interesting to think about, and that's why we're doing this to raise awareness and educate.

Beth 7:23

I just think a lot of it has to do with how um the word blind has been dealt with. You know, it's not just you know, the dictionary, if you use it, you know, the course the first definition is seeing, but then after that, you get into things like not knowing or not understanding. And that all that has always bothered me. When I was in college, I studied, I have one degree in journalism and I have another in computer security. And one of the exercises I did, I mean, this was you know, like 35 years ago, but if you look up the words left, blind, and black, the first definitions are different, but the third, fourth definitions, they're all very similar, like dark and not knowing or not understanding or or uh sinister or and it just really bothered me because you know, we we tend sometimes we use metaphors for things because that's our reference point. So I remember um this has come up for me a couple of times at work, you know, when someone says, Well, I was robbed blind, and I'm like, Well, did you have a cane at the time? You know, and so I was just trying to get people to think without being that annoying person that keeps complaining about people using blindness as a metaphor, but it does happen. And I just bring that up because people have a stigma around blindness sometimes. So even though you have to adjust your way of doing things because you have some usable vision, you know, if you have to adjust your daily living skills to the extent that, you know, you can't you can't drive or you can't uh look at a screen to use a computer and blindness techniques are more efficient for you, then you're living as a blind person. It just so happens that you have some usable vision. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just you, you know, you use your vision for some things and you use blindness skills for others. And for me, it's what is the most efficient tool for what you're doing? Because, you know, I'm a Braille user, but I also use a screen reader. And there are just certain things that Braille is helpful for me, and there's things that screen reader is helpful for. And sometimes I use them both at the same time, but you know, not everyone uses Braille. So what works for me may not work for someone else, but we're both blind.

Taylor 9:38

Yeah, I I think the idea of blindness can get fairly distorted in media, like whenever there is a blind person in the movie, it's almost always portrayed in a very similar way. So I think that definitely is a could be a big cause to why people have that misconception, but it is very interesting that you you talk about that. And I totally agree with that. So, what are some hobbies that you have or anything you're like passionate about?

Beth 10:09

So when I was very young, like nine years old, um, like I said earlier, I'm from Maine. So I started downhill skiing. And I wanted to ski because I wanted to do what everyone else was doing. So I got into an adaptive ski program and used a guide to ski with me. And when I was older, I participated, well, they didn't really call it the Paralympics at the time, but I started racing, ski racing in junior high and high school, and um got to the nationals of the, you know, before the Olympic trials. And unfortunately I I fell and hurt myself and dislocated my shoulder, so I couldn't ski. But before all that time, I was, you know, from my freshman year through junior year, I was um skiing with my guide who would ski in front of me and go around gates and we would race and I competed, and that was something I really enjoyed. After all that finished, you know, my parents told me, hey, you know, it's great that you did this, but now you need to graduate from high school and go to college. So I skied um non-competitively, but um with my friends or later on with my wife, who's also blind, and we, you know, we were living in New Mexico at the time. This was from like 2002, you know, in uh, you know, to like 2012 when we came to Baltimore, you know, from the we were skiing in in Albuquerque and and Denver before that. We were in Denver and then New Mexico and skiing. Um, other things um I like to read. I you I read audiobooks on my phone or occasionally on the computer. I also read uh using the braille display. I have one of the e-readers from the library, so that's that's very good. I can you know take it on the train with me and read braille that way. Um I listen to a bunch of different sports. I'm into baseball, basketball, football, all of those. I listen to them on the um the radio feeds for those or go to games sometimes. I listen to podcasts a lot because I have a train ride um to and from work. So that's what I have to do for that. So I listen to a lot of podcasts. And I just I enjoy socializing with my friends, you know. Um, my wife and I try to go out to a a different restaurant that we haven't tried, like once a month, you know, just do you know, when we try not to overdo it, you know, because it could get expensive. But just to go out and meet people and do things and unfairly active in my church. So um if you have any questions about any of that, happy to answer them.

Taylor 12:49

Yeah, but that that's not great to hear you're so like active when you're going to like I'm sure like people might watch this and think, whoa, a blind woman was able to see. Like that's really interesting to hear about. Like, and I could see a movie being made about that. But that is really cool that you did that. So obviously, like you said, you've been essentially blind your entire life. How did that affect you throughout school? And did it change depending on what level of education you were at?

Beth 13:23

So when I was very young, you know, I've I've been in public school most of the time, but um I say most of the time because my parents realized when I was, you know, in kindergarten, first grade that I wasn't reading. And this, I'm, you know, from a very small town in Maine, about 2,000 people, and they didn't have the resources to teach braille. And when they went to the state of Maine at that time, you know, this was in the early 70s, right around the time that they started to mainstream kids in the public school, that I didn't know how to read braille. And the state of Maine wanted to send me to Perkin School for the Blind, which is three and a half hours away in Boston. So my parents did not want to do that. So they um sent me to a Catholic school that happened to have a resource room in Portland, Maine, which was an hour away from me. And we, it was a residential, you know, I stayed with friends of my parents during the week, and then I came home to them on weekends because it was not a residential school. They had a resource room where they had a few other blind kids there. And I went there in second grade to learn Braille. And once I learned Braille, I came back and went back into the public school. So I pretty much remember not being able to read very well and then learned how to read the it was a Catholic school. I'm not Catholic, but that's you know, that was the school that my parents found. And I feel like they did a good job teaching me. I learned how to read Braille. One of the things I remember doing with the nuns was um playing Scrabble, so they made it at least fun to learn Braille. And I I still have Scrabble board here. I haven't played it in quite a while, but we have one. And after that, I I've gone through public school um pretty much the whole time. But so I see value in both of those things. There are times when it's good to have experience where you learn from other blind people and you participate in in activities that are completely accessible to you, but then you also from public school work with sighted people and people with other disabilities, and you you learn how to live in the world and work through issues and compromise and talk about things and learn how people do things. So I think you know, having all that experience was very helpful.

Taylor 15:43

Yeah, it's pretty cool that you got to experience both sides of that and able to get something from both both uh perspectives. So, what in regards to your blindness, does it ever affect your mental health?

Beth 15:57

Not the condition per se, but it's mostly how, you know, just dealing with people every day, how they deal with my blindness. In other words, you know, I'm, you know, the the train station that I use for work is two blocks from here. And sometimes when I'm walking and I'm using my cane to find the door of the, you know, to get on the train, someone will come and grab me. And I'm not, you know, my feet are not near the edge of the track or anything like that. But people don't understand how canes work. So they think they're being helpful. So, you know, normally I just tell people, you know, hey, please don't grab me, I'm good, you know, or if they someone asks me, I politely tell them, you know, whether I do or do not need help because everyone needs help sometimes.

Taylor 16:43

Yeah.

Beth 16:43

Um, but sometimes just when it happens over and over again in a day that, you know, people yell at you because they think that you can't hear them or they grab you. I think that that, you know, sometimes after a while it it does affect you, just it, you know, wondering if you've done anything and I know I haven't done anything to deserve that, or you know, did something, you know, how do I get through these things? And you just have to remember that most people are trying to help, they just don't know what to do. So I try to, if someone says, Do you need help across the street? And if I need it, fine. But if I don't need it, I'll just say, Yeah, I'm good. But if if you're walking my way, you know, let's walk together. And then I talk to them about how parallel traffic works and how I can hear the traffic and you know, know which way to cross, you know, and which way I need to go and when when to wait for traffic and when not to wait for traffic. Um I sometimes get annoyed when I'm you know, when I have to deal with websites or or other things either at home or at work that aren't accessible. But, you know, sometimes, you know, after you get annoyed, you know, maybe just stop and go take a walk and come back to it, you know, because it's it's just one of those things, or or try a different browser or try a different screen reader. You know, that's that's because just sometimes websites are broken and sometimes I end up writing on a short note to the owner owner of the website. And sometimes they respond and most of the time they don't, but at least I feel I've done something to try to tell them in a couple sentences, you know, politely that, you know, hey, I wanted to buy something on your website, but unfortunately I couldn't because you know the cart didn't work. You know, if you can't spend money, that's kind of important. So, you know, when if you have a lot of accessibility things with with websites on your computer or phone apps that don't work, you know, sometimes you just have to have to take a few minutes and calm down and just realize that it's nothing that you've done. It's just the way the world is, and we have to try to do our best to to get through it as best we can and move forward. It's easier said than done sometimes.

Taylor 19:01

Yeah, absolutely. So for anyone who would be watching, do you have any advice on how to handle those situations on the other side? So for example, I I truly believe that most humans are more are good in nature and they want to help people, but sometimes it might not be the most appropriate thing to do. So, do you have any advice for people who may be in a similar situation and want to help but don't know how? Like how to best handle that situation?

Beth 19:32

Well, I would say always remember that people are adults and think about how you would want to be treated. You know, if you don't want to have someone come and grab you, then that's not something that you should do. If someone comes and asks me if I need help, even if I'm annoyed, you know, I don't I try not to show that because asking is what I want someone to do. And usually and I've you know I've made a lot of friends that way, just talking with people. And you know, it does get exhausting sometimes because people come and talk to you. So um the way I deal with it sometimes, I have a jacket that I wear. It has a picture of of um galaxies from the web telescope. And whenever I wear that jacket, people will come up to me and talk to me about it. Or um I'm a Red Sox fan. So if I wear my Red Sox jacket, people will come and talk to me about it. So sometimes when they're talking to me about what I'm wearing, then they can ask me about blindness, and it's not it's it's a little easier to have a conversation because blindness isn't the immediate first thing, as opposed to like what I was talking to you about before, when people just come and grab you, like they think they're being helpful. So I usually tell people if someone does grab me, like, hey, I understand you're trying to help, but please next time could you just ask me or someone if you think that we need help? And it's annoying to do that, but like I hope that I am helping them the next time they see someone.

Taylor 21:01

Um I think the way you go about doing it's very, very healthy. And because by by being approaching it with positivity and not attacking them, like like they get something from the interaction, they don't feel like they're disinclined to help again. They just know better how to do it. If you approach it immediately with negativity, most people aren't going to want to listen. And so I think that's great that you approach it in that way.

Beth 21:33

I mean, I will be honest, I've had a couple of situations where it's been kind of scary to have, you know, you're it's different if someone comes and gently touches your shoulder and says, Do you need help versus literally someone has come and grabbed my arm that my cane is, you know, and I'm holding my arm and I'm on an escalator. You know, that's scary. So then I have to tell them, hey, please don't grab me. And like I try to move away from them because I've I'm scared, you know, they vibe not only violated my face but prevented me from navigating safely because they grabbed my arm with my cane.

Taylor 22:06

Yeah it's not something a lot of people will think about but just if you put it very simply like imagine you were just down in public with your eyes closed and someone that ref like grabs you it's it's gonna it's gonna slowly so I know some situations like it's hard to think in advance but it is good to talk about these things. So people who want to help have better understanding what to do and what not to do. I think that's very important.

Beth 22:34

Yeah I mean it's certain things like if I'm you know at various jobs that I've had in my life one of the first things I do with my supervisors when I first meet them after we, you know, after I know I have the job and after we talk about where everything is in the office, I talk to them about how I normally deal with fire drills and that I can walk stairs and everything because I've had situations where if I don't talk to them then someone's going to like come and grab my cane when we're trying to get out of the building. So I've just found that it's always good to understand how to get out of the building safely if there's a fire drill or God forbid if something really happened. You know, how do you get out and where do you go? You know, things like that. Just for me being a blind person, um you know being in the working world for 35 years now, just found that that's very helpful to do is if you take control of your blindness or things that you feel might be complicated or might be difficult, if you try to control them and talk to people about them instead of letting them try to handle it, I think things will go a lot better. Not saying that you know things will always be you know you no matter what you do, something might happen, but at least if you try to take control of it of your blindness in a way that works for you because you're you're the expert on your blindness. You know, I'm not the expert on your blindness but I feel like I'm the expert on my blindness you know what I can do and what I can't do what my limitations are which might be totally different from yours. So I think it's it's always good if you're you know whether it's a work situation or a church situation or school situation, you know, if you can talk to people ahead of time and just let them know how you want to deal with things or don't want to deal with things in some situations.

Taylor 24:15

Or you know as people get to know you, you know, things will be a little bit easier if if something happens absolutely and I that's something I advocate for a lot not just for myself but for others as well. It's not always the easiest especially when you first start doing it being more open about it. But it can really help down the road making those like for example like you were saying the fire drills or or really any other situation just having those conversations hey how can we best interact with you? Like how do you best handle this situation so when that time comes you know how everything is going to go down. So I I think that's a really good thing to share.

Beth 24:58

So uh let's talk a little bit more about your social life like I know you had said you and your wife go out to a new place around once a week like you were saying so what are some other things you do in your free time so sometimes we will go to a concert like this um season our our church has a music program which is separate from the actual church services that um you know basic a lot of choirs and and groups musicians will come in and the concerts are you know anywhere from like $25 to $60 depending on who's coming and so we go out and do that or you know concerts at other places you know that might be happening. There's a lot usually a lot of things going on in this area Baltimore to DC we've gone to plays in um in Washington DC because it's not that far from here it's only an hour on the train sporting events we um earlier this year went to an Orioles game you know and we usually bring our radios to the baseball game so we can hear with one ear of the radio what's happening and um hear the bat and the people and hear them catching the ball. And I always find it interesting when we go with sighted friends to the game is that some of them don't know as much about baseball as I do because I've been listening to it with my dad for years and years. When I was a kid he he got me into it and they wouldn't understand what happened so I'd end up having to explain whatever it was on the radio because they didn't understand what what happened on the field.

Taylor 26:34

That's pretty cool. Yeah I myself am a huge baseball fan not a great year for the Atlanta Brays but still a good year for baseball it's just fun to to get out.

Beth 26:48

The only thing that's that's not the best is navigating if you're carrying a bunch of stuff. So the the ushers at the stadium are really good you know if you're trying to you know walk around and carry things or you know there's no braille at the section indicators so you you kind of need to find an usher to help you or ask people what row you're in, you know, things like that. But it's doable. You just have to realize that you know if you're gonna get food or find the restroom that it's gonna take a while to get back to where you are and a lot of times we will go with friends but sometimes it's just the two of us. So if that's the case and you know we just realize hey we're just gonna have to work this out and figure things out and talk to people and communicate and usually everything works out. But you know it's um we also decided sometimes we just will go out to eat ahead of time and then just get something to drink at the game because then you don't have to try to navigate and carrying food and all that stuff.

Taylor 27:46

Yeah that's that's a pretty good and that's that's great to see that that you all don't let your blindness keep you from from doing stuff you enjoy. So that that's awesome to see. So for me when I'm in those environments I have uh have you heard of a sunflower badge?

Beth 28:05

I have heard of it but I I haven't really considered it. I know it's uh um from what I've read about and please correct me if I'm wrong but it it started out as for people with hidden disabilities.

Taylor 28:16

Yeah and uh I I was fairly reluctant at first um and and it's still something I have to explain because I'm hoping over time it'll gain more and more popularity here in the U.S. I believe it started in the UK I could be wrong in that so don't quote me on that but I'm hoping it gets more and more reminiscental because as more and more people get aware of it they know when they see that lanyard they know that that person has a hem disability and if they interact with them they can look at it and see how to best interact with them and what they're what they're currently dealing with. And so if there's anything that might be pertinent for you to know. So I it's been uh very helpful for me and it it definitely takes uh a little bit of courage to start doing it because it can be a a little intimidating to walk around basically with your hand up saying hey I have a disability um but there's been situations where it's proven to be very helpful so it's it's a give and take but overall I'd say it's been really worth it for me.

Beth 29:24

So it's it's great to see more and more awareness here in the US so I think that's really cool really cool you know that you that that exists and that people have that. I never really considered it because I I figure as a blind person um I you know I have my cane so that's you know if I had a hidden disability or or you know was diagnosed with one I would certainly consider doing that. I just never really thought about it because I haven't that's not a situation that I feel that I'm actually in but I fully support you know anyone who can benefit from that by all means. You know but I I can also understand I have many friends who have hidden disabilities and you know they've told me that they've been accused of faking it because people don't understand what they're dealing with because sometimes their disability there they don't have any flare ups or symptoms that particular day. So people can't tell that there's anything wrong. So having the sunflower is is helpful to them.

Taylor 30:19

Yeah and unfortunately that that does happen quite a bit I've experienced it as well because over time of I like aesthetic I still can see some but I'm not the best at making eye contact but over time of learn to make better eye contact. And so sometimes people say like you're visually impaired you're making perfect eye contact with everyone here. I'm like well it takes time and not every disability and blindness form of blindness is the same and they're like your eye is like perfectly healthy. I'm like well my my eyes are perfectly healthy.

Beth 30:56

It's my brain that's the issue so people are so judgy I mean I I um my mom when I was a little kid she would she would turn my shoulders and and you know not not in not in a difficult way just gently and say hey you know you might want to try to look at people as opposed to putting your ears toward them. This is when I was very young, you know, five or six to make me look at people when I'm talking to them. So now I just do it. So I've been told that I'm fairly good at making eye contact although my eyes don't actually work you know I at least try to face the right direction and hope that I'm you know making eye contact with people because you know whether I can see them or not it's you know the perception you want to you know people to know that you're paying attention to them and everything. So I can understand if people but people are so are so judgy and quick to seem to have issues with people if they think that you're not making eye contact with them even if blindness isn't really the issue. If it's it's some other you know if you're if someone is autistic I know I have friends who who find it difficult to make eye contact with people.

Taylor 32:05

Yeah. And they're not blind so yeah with with the blindness I've I've learned over time close enough counts a lot of times I realized it wasn't looking at their eyes but I I would talk to them and they never noticed so I realized as long as as I'm looking in the general area most likely they won't know.

Beth 32:27

Well you you mentioned earlier you asked me you know if there are mental health issues while you were talking I was thinking about the fact that you know sometimes you know after you you've you know worked an eight hour day and after you've dealt with being on the train or you're on the train and you know somebody who means no harm to you or has the best of intentions they ask you a question and you know it's going to take a while or just tired. And I've had to politely tell someone you know I I understand why you're asking but I really you know I really can't talk to you about that right now. Or I've had people you know ask, you know, stop me I don't know them at all. I've never met them and they say were you born that way and I just you know I'm sorry I just you know need to keep that information private. I don't really want to talk about this right now because I'm I'm tired or maybe I had a bad day or you know just like anyone else. So I think there's a balance between when you are able and and have your you know have have uh you're having a good mental health day it's perfectly fine to teach people and talk to them like we've been saying but I also think it's good to to have control of your yourself and your surroundings and to pull you know politely not be rude but say I'm I'm sorry I I can't really discuss this with you right now or you know I'm tired or you know whatever the issue is like we shouldn't feel like just because we have a disability that we have to be an open book to everyone. We're still adults and we have control over what we choose to tell people and not tell people and I think if we're not going to talk to people we need to be polite and not be rude and and have some diplomacy but I also think that we need to have control over what we want to do just like everyone else and you know what we want to say or not say and treat everyone with dignity. Some people also need to treat us that way. Honestly if I put my headphones on then people tend to not you know not talk to me as much and I usually if I'm on a train or a bus I usually keep one ear open just so I can make sure I hear the announcements I don't want to miss my stop or whatever. But I find that if I do have my headphones on it doesn't happen as much you know if I'm if I do not have my headphones on. And like I said if if I'm friends with someone and they're asking me something it's you know I can usually answer the question no problem. But you know if you are friends with them and someone you see on the train all the time that you're um you know could we please talk about this another time you know I'm just really tired. You know so I just basically it's just you you have to understand your situation and what you're dealing with and every situation is different. Every person is different but that you know people should have control over what they what they do and how they do it. And most of the time I'm very willing to talk to people but just like everyone you know we have a bad day once in a while yeah so could you describe a typical day for us I usually during the week um I'm on the train to work and that's it takes a train and a bus so it takes me an hour to get there. And then I do my job and pretty much pretty go the other way you know to come back. It's pretty much train and bus. You know I'm I'm two blocks from the train station so once I get back to the station it's not that long. Here on a on a holiday like we're talking or a weekend it's you know get up have have breakfast you know do some reading um you know listen to some podcasts you know like I said if we're if we're going out we do that you know like around lunchtime we I didn't we didn't do that today because we're having this talk today but it really depends on um what weekend it is or or what we're doing sometimes we'll uh we'll go out after work you know if if um something's going on you know meet friends for dinner so what are some of the more challenging daily tasks a lot of things I'm I'm dealing with is um trying to figure out how software works you know different software that I have to use whether it's at home or at work things have gotten better in terms of accessibility but I find I have to figure out how to use various websites for you know whatever whether it's something um on my phone or something um at work or something you know I'm I'm taking an online class for that and there's just a lot of times you know a little bit of frustration with that so I try to find a a routine so I I usually check all the headings first and then I um read through all of that and I it's just one of those things that after a while you get used to it and try not to get frustrated but I find that there's a unfortunately still a lot of broken websites regardless of whether I'm at work or at home or pretty much anything it doesn't really matter um what we have to deal with but I try to find a systematic way to deal with those and I've I've come up with you know like I said dealing with headings and then exploring the website and usually I can figure out more than one way to do something a different website a different screen reader luckily I have JAWS and VDA and voiceover on my phone so I am able to try you know I don't know I think I was doing some birthday shopping for my grandkids both of them are born in July and I have grandkids who are 11 and 12 and I was trying to buy something for them on Amazon and Amazon is usually pretty good but I was just having issues with the particular seller and I finally had to switch browsers and screen readers to get it to work. I mean that's just some of the things but I was eventually able to get it done it's just sometimes you have to try different things in order to do what needs to be done and not give up.

Taylor 38:25

So I noticed you talked about using various screen readers and like you all I'll use different ones depending on the situation. I've definitely found I prefer NVDA for a lot of situations uh but like you I also use the voiceover feature on my phone which can be very helpful. So what are some other assistive technologies that you use?

Beth 38:49

I started using yeah I'm more of a JAWS person although I do I do like NVDA as well I have both of them on my machine on my computer here and because there are some software that works better with one or the other. So it's good to have both. I also I have a Braille display here in front of me. It works with JAWS andor NVDA and it's basically a rectangular box that has pins that pop up and down and you can read braille that is a complement to whatever you're reading with the speech. So um I find that helpful for me to especially when you're editing things or um if I need to present something and I'm I need to read out loud I have access to the braille display or I also have a braille printer here so I can print something out on paper if we need to do that. It's very helpful.

Taylor 39:43

Oh that's cool I didn't know you could have like a braille printer at home that's pretty cool.

Beth 39:49

Yeah so this one is called the index model D5 and it's actually a European printer but there's there's a whole bunch of there's a bunch of companies that make braille printers but this one um will print graphics as well so we just wanted to have a printer my wife and I use it and um she has a business in museum accessibility so sometimes she'll need to print something in graphics or sometimes I've um printed a computer screen layout once in a while just to have access to that and it makes looking at graphics a little easier. I mean the scale is a little bit different. Sometimes you know because braille takes up more space you have to adjust things so that everything will fit on the page but that's um one of the things that helped me earlier when I was talking about math just having math in Braille or having you know raised graph paper and and other things that you can use the tools to help and I think it's one of the best things that a person with disability can have is is being willing to problem solve and think through you know what I normally do is okay how what needs to happen what does a cited person usually do to solve this problem or to do this task and I try that but if it doesn't work what things do I have around me or what skills do I have that will allow me to do you know whatever it is that they're doing. So sometimes when I have a graph or a diagram or something like that, sometimes I I can print it out in Braille or sometimes if it's depending on what it is, I'll put something, you know, make it a spreadsheet or a table, you know, just so I can read the same information. So you know it all depends on what needs to be done. And I think that's what we need to remember is that as a person with disability we have skills that everyone else may not have which is solving problems. So when we're looking for a job or looking to go to school you know we are constantly solving problems because the world wasn't built for some of the ways that we do things. So we have to find a new way to get the same thing done and but maybe we we're just doing it in a different way with the screen reader or braille or large print or whatever it is.

Taylor 42:08

And that's very interesting learning about the ways you use a braille printer it's that's very very cool I've I didn't even know that was a thing. I knew they had to print braille in some ways but I never thought about having one like in the home so that's pretty pretty interesting.

Beth 42:24

So are you involved with any like communities uh for blind people whether it be in person or virtually so I I've been a member of the National Federation of the Blind for a very long time. We have a local chapter here and of course the headquarters is in Baltimore. I'm not uh always able to make every meeting but it's you know I won a scholarship from the NFB in 1987 so it was a long time ago and the can-do philosophy that it has has been very helpful to me and I've met a lot of really interesting people doing all kinds of different jobs I mean that's one of the things that's been helpful is if you're not sure how a blind person can do a particular thing, you can go on the the NFB and computer science list or there's a list for people you know talking about different electronic appliances or you know just how people have done things. You know there's a a list that's not NFB that my wife told me that she's on it the the blind academia list you know where people are in grad school or or PhDs and they're talking about how to do data analysis for their dissertations or whatever. You know it's just having a place where you can ask questions you know either in person or or virtually I think is is really helpful. So you know you're not the only one.

Taylor 43:45

That's pretty cool. And speaking of not the only one that that same area do you feel well represented in media?

Beth 43:55

So I if you're if you're talking about like movies and things Like that. I really think that blind people should be playing blind people. That doesn't happen enough. So a few years ago, there was a CVS show. I'm trying to remember the name of it now, but they it was about a blind person, but the blind person did not, you know, they they did not have a blind person play them. It's you know the same thing when Daredevil was out. They had a consultant helping them who was blind, which I have no issues with with this person at all. He I think he did a great job helping them, but I really think they should have had a blind person play Daredevil or whoever it is. You know, I I just think that that's something that that should happen. Now, in terms of just in general and dealing with blindness, I think that the media is just like the rest of society, that people have the same views unless we, as blind people, take control of it when we're on interviews. And, you know, obviously we can't control what they write, but at least we can control what we discuss and how we discuss it and how we present ourselves and um point people to resources that are um positive and and realistic. You know, I'm not saying that, you know, like we were talking about earlier, everyone has a bad day now and then. So I'm not, you know, I view my blindness as an inconvenience, but that doesn't mean, you know, sometimes you just have a crappy day like everyone else. You know, it doesn't mean that that everything is going to be 100% positive all the time. But the way that you solve problems, like one of my one of my cane travel instructors used to always tell me, it's like, hey, you know, it really sucks that you messed up the street crossing, but what's even better is that you realized you messed it up and you figured out where you needed to be and straightened yourself out, that that was more important.

Taylor 45:39

Yeah, I would agree. There's there's definitely some misrepresentation going on here and there. Uh, but what was really cool was uh during the Super Bowl last year, as you know, they are known for having pretty cool commercials. They had one that actually made me cry because it was, I believe it was for Google Pixel, and they were kind of showing uh obviously there are a lot of different types of blindness, but they were showing what the world looks like for some blind people. And like I had a lot of people who I was watching it with asking me if that's what I saw, and like they were like, I had no idea that like it just gave them a perspective that they never thought they would have. And so just seeing it on that large a scale was pretty impactful to like just to feel represented on one of the largest stages for the year.

Beth 46:35

Yeah, I mean, it's good that you know, Google has, you know, you know, like like a lot of the the bigger companies like Google and Apple and Microsoft and Amazon and you know, they've they've a lot of them have have realized that accessibility is important. I mean, our money works just as well as everyone else's. So it's not just, you know, we a lot of us for many years, I'm sure you as well, you've had to make the business case for accessibility. I mean, yes, it is the right thing to do, but it's also that we have money, you know, billions of dollars. I mean, I was reading something the other day, you know, that there's like all over the world, if you talk about how many people have disabilities, it's like, you know, into the billions of dollars that we have that we could possibly spend all over the world, the people with different disabilities.

Taylor 47:23

Yeah, I I know what you're referring to, and I I talk about it here and there because when I talk about accessibility and why I used to prioritize it, I do from three different perspectives the ethical, which is the ideal one, but then the legal and the business perspective. And I saw the study was just in the US, people with disabilities have around $500 billion worth of disposable income. Yeah, so I I totally agree that business case is not the ideal reason why businesses should prioritize it, but it's something that certainly helps the the cause.

Beth 48:02

Yeah, and I've had to I've had to talk to, you know, in pretty much any job that I've had, um, you know, I try to be an advocate for myself and other people. And I I end up talking to people. It's like, hey, you have this talent, you've hired us to do a job, but there's so much talent that's not being used because of, you know, a broken website or, you know, other accessibility issues that may come up, you know, and if we were able to work together to straighten that out, you know, people are people want to work and want to do the job, but there's so much talent that either people are not working or either they're underutilized because of broken websites or software that that isn't being fully utilized or that people don't know about that might be able to help them advance that they they're not even aware of.

Taylor 48:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I know we had talked a good amount about assistive technology briefly about your your white cane, uh your refreshable braille display, is that what it's called, right? Yeah. And uh yeah, so that's all very interesting. But I was wondering, have you ever used a guide dog?

Beth 49:15

Many years ago. So from let's see, what year was it? 88 to let's see, 80, yeah, let's see. I'm trying to remember what year it was. I basically I had one for 10 years, and I love animals, I love dogs, but I had to get a dog to realize that I was a better cane user, pretty much, because I thought, you know, you kind of you hear about this stereotype that the dog will help you get places and or that the dog has eyes, so it will help you. But if your travel skills need work, then having a dog is not going to automatically improve them. You know, that's I had to go, I went to uh um a training center run by National Federation of the Blind at the time. I went in Colorado in 2000, late 2001, early 2002. I was there for nine months and got some travel skills that I I did get some cane travel experience in Maine, but not enough. So I wanted to go there. And a lot of the the center there is is helping people adjust to blindness who have become blind later in life, or people like myself who didn't really feel like they got enough services. Like I was able to cook and I knew Braille and I knew how to use computers, but I, you know, really wanted to go work on travel. So that's what I did because earlier in my life I had gotten a dog and I loved having a dog, but it didn't automatically make me a better traveler because it's not going to help you learn your compass directions or the or an address system or you know how blocks work. You know, that is going to help with having mobility lessons, you know, either mobility with a cane or mobility with a dog, or just, you know, exploring your neighborhood and learning how to travel. So um I realized that it was for my mental mapping abilities, it was helpful to have physical contact with whatever. I don't mean running into stuff, obviously, but like finding a driveway with my cane versus, you know, you have to kind of where you think the driveway is gonna be, or if you hear an open space, then you you direct the dog, you know. But with the for me, it was my mental mapping skills were were better having physical contact with stuff. But I didn't know that until I used had a dog and used the cane. But that is one thing. Sometimes people stop me, want to know why I don't have a dog, and I start conversations with them and I tell them, well, if you're sighted, it's like SUV or minivan, you know, people make the decision what's best for them. People have to decide. The only thing I would say, I've I've talked with people is that it would be good to have some experience with the cane before you get your dog. Because even if you have a dog, if the dog is sick or something happens, you still need to navigate. But I, like I said, I'm I like dogs, but I just after I retired my dog, I just decided to to keep using my cane. But you know, other people make different decisions because everyone has to do what works for them. I don't know if I would say it wasn't as good. It just wasn't, I didn't feel I was getting enough information out of it. But then there are certain advantages. You know, if you're in New York City and you're trying to get through a crowd of people, you know, having a dog is really helpful getting through a whole huge crowd of people. But, you know, it's also, I tell people, it's like having a two-year-old with you all the time. You know, the dog, you know, you have to feed it, you have to make sure it doesn't, you know, sniff things or people that it shouldn't be. And I'm not saying that is a bad thing, it's just something you need to do. You need to keep control of things and make sure that the dog behaves itself and that it has a good life and you, you know, you you give it love and attention and play with it and everything. So I mean, that's why I said I love dogs, but I just just at this point in my life it didn't really work for me. I mean, who knows? You know, maybe things will change down the road, but at least where I am now, I'm a cane user.

Taylor 53:10

That's good to know. Yeah, I've considered getting it uh dog, but it's I I have a a very large dog right now, and I'm not sure if I could handle having another dog. So well, it'd seem like you were saying down the road things might change, might try it out, see how it works because I briefly experienced using a white cane to get around, uh, but I do have a decent amount of vision, but I didn't really feel like it helped me enough to adopt it to use it regularly. So I just kind of moved away from it and just kind of figure out my the best way for me to get around. Like you said, we're we're all different, even if we have a very similar form of blindness. Some people, like you were saying, SUV or a car, might prefer one over the other.

Beth 54:00

Well, I found even, you know, no matter which travel method you use, it's gonna take, you know, you're not gonna know within a day. Like you need to give it some time, you know, whatever, whatever it is. That's why when you when you get a dog, you're in training for a month, you know, or if you you do cane travel, you know, you need to use it for a while because it's different if you're not used to it. You know, I use a fairly long cane, but not everyone is, you know, I have if I don't normally have it out all the way, but if you have the room to do it, you know, there's no one in front of you, you've got three steps between if you have the cane fully extended. So if you touch stairs, you know you've got a couple steps in front of you. But if there's a bunch of people walking around, I'm gonna pull it into myself so that I'm I have it closer to my feet because I don't want to trip anyone, you know. So I have friends who don't have depth perception, so they need the cane to so they can find curbs and things like that because they didn't want to be looking down at their feet all the time. So they feel you know, they can look up at things and with the vision that they have, they can use it for other things and not have to worry about tripping over things. So I mean, but it took them a while to get there to feel comfortable because unfortunately the cane has a stigma, you know, like we're talking about blindness in general. I think that people feel more comfortable with dogs. I don't think it has such a stigma as a cane does.

Taylor 55:20

Yeah, I I would agree. So are there any situations where your blindness can bring you joy? And that may sound like an odd question, but I'm just curious if if you have any experience with that.

Beth 55:33

I try to have a sense of humor about it all. You know, I I I'm trying to think of something now that one time I I I used to work at uh Xerox many years ago in the 90s, and um my parents were visiting me, and I was probably I was um my daughter wasn't born yet, so I was probably in my early, my early 20s, and my mom brought beer and soda and said, Don't forget the beer is in the box, the soda is not. So of course I accidentally bring the beer to work. And it's like, don't open the beer, you know. A friend of mine said, Did you know you brought beer to work? You know, and and he, you know, if if it was like what we're dealing with now, you could use your phone and scan it if you were really worried about it. So I did not open the beer and I did not get in trouble. But, you know, those type of things, you know, it's funny. I mean, it's annoying that I did it, but these are friends of mine. So the only thing that happened was that um when I was at work, people come up to me, hey Beth, I'm having a really bad day. You have beer, right?

Taylor 56:44

Yeah, and I think that's awesome. I I think having that that outlook on it is incredibly helpful because for a while I attained my blindness at 18. And in the beginning, as I'm sure you can imagine, it was it was harder to accept it and to embrace it as who I part of who I was. And so it took time, and I've always had a great sense of humor, but it took time. I just like to laugh at and just enjoy the fun, funny situations I get in. Like hide and go seek with my niece has gotten a lot more exhilarating.

Beth 57:19

Well, yeah, because you can hear my sister told me once that when we were playing hide and seek, that I unplugged the refrigerator so I could hear people. I was like, oh no. I mean, I was young. I was like, how do I know how to unplug the refrigerator? That's pretty difficult, you know.

Taylor 57:36

I'm not sure how safe. Uh but yeah, like my vision, uh like when things aren't moving, it's even harder to see them. So sometimes my niece will just stand like out just on the other side of a doorway and just stand still. And I'll walk right by her like three times. So like there is there are situations where I'd like to take the take it just as a joyful situation and not just have a moment where I'm not thinking about what my vision is keeping me from doing, but the experience it's allowing me to have.

Beth 58:15

So I know um this has come up, you know, I I've kind of changed the way I I ask, you know, when you when you're in a Zoom meeting, you know, when I first started working with Zoom, people would be like, okay, can everyone hear me and see me? And I'm like, I was reading something once. It's like, well, maybe we shouldn't be asking that. It should be, are my audio and video working? Because it really doesn't matter. You know, you you don't want to sound like you're calling out people with disabilities, but yet you'd also don't want to be that person to joke around and say, can everyone hear me and see me? And it's like, nope, I'm not gonna say anything. I can't hear or see them. I'm not gonna say anything. But it has come up when the slides aren't working and everything comes to a grinding halt because whatever presentation it is can't be presented because the slides don't work. And if these are people that I know, I wouldn't do this if it was people I didn't know. I was like, oh come on, you can present without slides, without looking at them. I do it all the time, you know, because sometimes people forget to send me, unfortunately, stuff ahead of time. And I have to ask people to verbalize because I don't have inf, you know, I can't read the PowerPoint on the screen, you know, that type of thing. So that kind of says whether I can joke around or how much I can say, because if it's five or six people that know me, I can, you know, make a blind joke about that. If if it's a huge town hall or something where there's hundreds of people, I have to email someone and say, hey, could you send me the slides? I don't I can't read the screen share or whatever. So I mean, it it does lend itself to humor depending on the situation. If you're, you know, I I tell I sometimes tell people because there's like, well, what can I do to make this easier since I know you can't read stuff on the screen? And I'm like, well, just pretend that I and other people are on the phone because people don't necessarily think about blindness. But I'm like, well, pretend you have to explain this to somebody on the phone. I just I find that's what I find having the braille display is very helpful because I turn I usually turn off the speech and read the slides that way if I'm presenting, or I print it out on paper a lot. If I I'm always afraid that my technology is gonna crap out on me in the middle of whatever I'm presenting. So that's one of the reasons why I got the printer and I also I also have one at works. And sometimes I just print out what I'm gonna be presenting, especially if I have to stand up at a podium or something, you know, because where I work, we're not allowed to have Wi-Fi headphones or anything like that. And it's not always practical to have a wired headset. So a lot of times I just find it easier to have the the braille display or paper so I can present and not worry. And I just sometimes I have to have someone click slides for me, but everyone does that where I work. They will have someone click the slides for them so they don't have to deal with it, whether they're blind or not.

Taylor 1:01:14

Yeah, well that that's pretty interesting. And uh it gives me makes me think maybe I should start learning some braille, might help me out with my presenting, just have like a have it right in front of me, or even if it's just like keywords to remind me to hit certain topics. So that's pretty pretty cool that you do that.

Beth 1:01:34

Yeah, I mean, I don't, yeah, I mean, technically you're not supposed to read your entire slides anyway. So when I do that, I just have a couple like cue cards or whatever, just notes, so I know what I'm gonna talk about.

Taylor 1:01:44

Yeah. So what environments do you feel like you do best in, whether it be like a social environment, like talking to people or even navigating an an environment, like what situations are the easiest?

Beth 1:01:59

So I'm I'm a fairly extroverted person. So, you know, I enjoy, you know, talking with people and getting to know people. And sometimes it's it's helpful I've noticed to be extroverted, especially if you run into any issues, because you sometimes you have to ask someone for help, or you have to ask what's happening if it's too loud and you can't navigate, you know, if there's a lot of um, or if you're trying to navigate a buffet line, you need to talk to people to find out what's there or ask for help if you need it, you know, things like that.

Taylor 1:02:33

Yeah, gotcha. All right. Well, I feel like we are getting pretty far into our time. So I think we should go ahead and start wrapping things up. Uh, but I just want to take time to really thank you, Beth. I really appreciate you joining me and sharing your lived experience and all of these different things that some people may not be as comfortable talking about. So I very much appreciate that. And it was amazing getting to know you and thank you again.

Beth 1:03:01

Thank you, Taylor. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Hope it was helpful.

Taylor 1:03:04

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you all so much for joining the latest episode of Day in the Life, and we'll see you next time. Thank you all for joining us while we explore accessibility and disability. If you enjoyed this podcast, check out more episodes and show notes at accessiblecommunity.org slash podcast. Remember, be accessible, be inclusive.